From: Don Martin
To: J. Shaughnessy
Date: Jan 6 1998 12:40:32 pm
Subject: apologies to the regulars
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J. Shaughnessy said "doubting gods" to Martin Goldberg,

JS> I have no master but my God in whom I trust He is my lord and
JS> savior! The Bible says that God wants all men to repent and
JS> come to the real knowledge of Him.

MG> Say, still forgot to offer any nonbiblical evidence
MG> that this god of yours exists.
MG> Do so now or be the butt of even more jokes.

JS> Hehehehe wonderful .... being the butt of a Joke for
JS> Jesus is just fine!

JS> Now for your proof or evidence or what ever you seem to
JS> be seeking is not going to be found to your
JS> liking...(even if I had 5 sences proof I wonder if
JS> would care to hear it)..

JS> If God was a material God It would be my job to prove
JS> him to exist in the material world using the 5
JS> sences...but He is a Spirit...

And being a spirit, he can have no impact whatsoever
upon the material world? Is that the heresy you are trying
to foist upon us, Pilgrim?

Try this on for size and get back to us:

Personally, I have said many times that I would
welcome ANY evidence of the existence of any god, and I
have even specified indirect evidence that would be
quite convincing, not only to myself, but (I suspect) to
all the wicked atheists here: the residue of the Noachan
Flood. It avoids the problem of "how can there be
physical evidence for a spiritual being?" by focussing
on one instance in which that spiritual being supposedly
interacted physically with the physical world in a way
that would have produced distinctive physical
consequences. While we have seen fundies claim that
their god is so deceitful as to cover his tracks, I, for
one, would presume that such a dishonest being is
unworthy of being taken seriously, much less of worship.

I do not concern myself here with the issue of the
needed two additional hydrospheres of water and its
drainage out of earth's gravity well, nor with the
necessary consequences resulting therefrom by operation
of the laws of physics: the atmospheric pressure
resulting from a "vapor canopy" that would prevent the
existence of life as we know it, the heat release from
the condensation of that much water that would be
sufficient to melt lead anywhere in the atmosphere, etc.
are very serious impediments to the veracity of the
story, but most, if not all, fundies lack sufficient
knowledge of physics to be able to follow the reasoning.
It only confuses them, leading them to drag out yet
another version of the Deceitful God, who, they claim,
sets the laws of physics aside his wonders to perform.
Instead, I simply take the Genesis account at its face
value, looking at the effects that much water falling at
that rate would inescapably have upon the face of the

We have an account of a global flood directly
produced by Yahweh in the Bible. Given the fact that we
have information, presumably from a source inspired by
omniscience, of the extent of the flood ("over the
highest mountains," or roughly 30,000 feet above present
sea level) and of the time of the rain (40 days and 40
nights = 40 24-hour days = 960 hours), it is easy to
calculate the rate of the rainfall: 30,000/960 = 31.25
feet of water fell per hour. That is a little more than
six inches of rainfall per minute.

I would think that "gullywasher" fails to do this
rate justice, inasmuch as that term is applied to
rainfalls of one or two inches per hour. Suffice it to
say that this rain would wash away pretty much any
particles smaller than Volkswagens and deposit all of
this in a single stratum covering the low-lying areas

We know from geology that floods leave evidence in
direct proportion to their size (this stratum would, for
instance, be far thicker than any other ever created and
would cover all the area on earth with its thickness
varying in inverse proportion to altitude), and we
further know from the mechanics of disposition of
suspended solids in fluids the type and extent of the
stratum that would be laid down by a global flood. Those
larger particles would lie at the bottom of the stratum,
with progressively smaller bits covering them. In
addition to that, the contents of that stratum,
particularly in the region of shorelines where the
braking effect of standing water would cause the flow to
drop much of its initial load, the remains of ALL
creatures mingled together under optimal conditions for
fossilization (heavy sedimentation at great depths, with
the finest materials thickly sealing the top) are known:
in short, a universal unique event would produce a
universal unique outcome--a stratum like no other in the
geologic column.

Such a stratum would furnish perfectly good
indirect evidence for the existence of this Yahweh
person, just as tracings on a photographic plate tell us
of subatomic particles or the behavior of objects in
space tells us of the existence of enormous
gravitational forces explicable only by the presence of
a black hole.

So show us this stratum. That would be evidence.

... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View

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